ONTD

5:32 pm - 01/11/2013

ARGO VS. ZERO DARK THIRTY: TWO TAKES ON TORTURE




When the Academy Award nominations were announced on Thursday morning, Kathryn Bigelow was not on the list for Best Director. That surprised some people; maybe it shouldn’t have. The film she made, “Zero Dark Thirty,” was nominated for Best Picture and four other awards, and she’s won in the past, for “The Hurt Locker.” The problem appears to have been torture—the way it was depicted in the movie, which is about the killing of Osama bin Laden, and her insistence that she was constrained in the story she told by the truth, when, in fact, she veered away from it.

If torture had been the only standard, though, then Ben Affleck might have been nominated for best director for “Argo,” a film that is more self-consciously fictionalized, and yet in many ways more honest—but he was also on the list of snubs. (So was Tom Hooper, the director of “Les Misérables.”) “Argo,” set in Iran during the hostage crisis, is based on the story of how six Americans at the embassy managed to slip away while the compound was being stormed, how Canadian diplomats hid them for months, and how a C.I.A. agent helped get them out by pretending that they were the crew for a science-fiction movie.

But it is also a movie about torture: more precisely, about the price of tolerating and abetting it. In a prologue framed as comic-book panels, a narrator explains American complicity in a coup that overthrew an elected government, our support for the Shah, his decadence, and the torture perpetrated by his secret police, which Iranians came to associate with Americans. (Because this comic book is less cartoonish than “Zero Dark Thirty,” it is also nuanced enough to mention that traditionalists weren’t happy with the opportunities afforded to women under the Shah.) Several times in the movie, both hardened C.I.A. agents and American diplomats wonder what we’d been thinking when we decided to support a torturer, and why we were still protecting him—he had fled to the United States for medical treatment, and the Iranians wanted him back. The hatred in the streets, the way Iranian society had been deformed by a drive for revenge and score-settling, is openly attributed to torture.

“Argo” does add a few more cliff-hanging moments than there were in reality—for example, cars screeching after the diplomats’ SwissAir flight as it’s about to take off. (In fairness, the Tehran airport, in that period, was a scene of intense drama, with people pulled off planes, children interrogated, luggage ripped apart.) Another complaint is that the heroism of the Canadian diplomats isn’t credited enough, although, as Michelle Shephard, of the Toronto Star, points out, Affleck took some steps to address that by, for example, amending the film’s postscript. To take one instance, in a tense scene in the movie, C.I.A. agents in Langley electronically confirm the diplomats’ plane tickets; in real life, the Ambassador’s wife paid for them herself. “Argo,” in short, is no documentary. But there’s no mistake about the moral dilemma.

In “Zero Dark Thirty,” in contrast, torture is something that steady professionals do in quiet rooms, and that only cowardly politicians question. Many discussions of the film suggest that torture only appears in its opening sequence; but it runs through the film. Maya, the agent played by Jessica Chastain, is seen studying videos of detainees being questioned under torture. They give her epiphanies, not compunctions. And Maya, the character we are meant to identify with, becomes a torturer herself. She mimics the lines she’s heard her colleague Dan use before he hurts people. She questions detainees with a large man sitting next to her, and has him strike them when she doesn’t like an answer. She talks about directing the use of every measure available on a prisoner. As I’ve written before, what is left out in all of this is the wrenching debate within the intelligence community about whether what they were doing was effective or moral or American. In one of the worst lines in the movie, a C.I.A. official complains that new, Obama-era rules have tied his hands: he can’t interrogate the prisoners at Guantánamo at all, because their lawyers will run to tell Al Qaeda what they were asked. That is a profound insult to the many lawyers who worked tirelessly not to help Al Qaeda, but to defend our values and our Constitution. (Jose Rodriguez, a former C.I.A. agent who was involved in the torture program and destroyed videotapes like the ones Maya watched, wrote that, when he heard the line about the lawyers, “I had to smile.”)

The problems people have with “Zero Dark Thirty” and torture are about directorial choices, and it is more than reasonable that Bigelow be judged on them. Directors are rewarded when they do brave things, and for what they have to say—it could just be about love or aging or children’s toys, but she chose to speak about torture. Awards are not only for lighting, or the performances they coax out, or for aesthetics in a vacuum. A didactic film that is garish or woodenly acted shouldn’t be rewarded just for its message either; you need both, which is why great directing is hard, and why only a few people get nominated.


Source

Seeing as we're all wanked out on Django Unchained, maybe we could start discussing this instead.
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silkchemise 11th-Jan-2013 04:39 pm (UTC)
nhf this racist, islamophobic movie
bnmc2005 11th-Jan-2013 04:44 pm (UTC)
Which one?
silkchemise 11th-Jan-2013 09:14 pm (UTC)
ZD30
ialmrnt5 11th-Jan-2013 04:52 pm (UTC)
haven't seen argo but if you are talking about ZT30

ms_mmelissa 11th-Jan-2013 04:51 pm (UTC)
I still can't believe Bigelow was snubbed. 95 on metacritic. Most well-reviewed film of the year. BFCA, GG, BAFTA and DGA nominations.

Incredible.
cammiec 11th-Jan-2013 05:01 pm (UTC)
I fucking know right. I really thought the website made a mistake when I was reading the noms list and her name wasn't there.
masterofmystery 11th-Jan-2013 05:17 pm (UTC)
it's gotta be the most alarming snub in years, when she was front-runner before the oscar nods yesterday
mammary_glands 11th-Jan-2013 05:26 pm (UTC)
the academy is against truth in cinema
ms_mmelissa 11th-Jan-2013 05:28 pm (UTC)
The academy is against women. 80 years of nominations, 4 women directors nominated, only 1 woman winner.
ediesedgwick 11th-Jan-2013 05:28 pm (UTC)
what truth?
freeze_i_say 12th-Jan-2013 02:40 pm (UTC)
lol "truth"
blooms_lady 11th-Jan-2013 05:32 pm (UTC)
sexism!
brokenseas 11th-Jan-2013 06:16 pm (UTC)
Really pathetic, IA.
politic_ennui 11th-Jan-2013 04:56 pm (UTC)
I saw Bigelow's interview on Letterman -- she was proud that she had the inside story and that she portrayed certain scenes exactly as it happened [and that they used the same sort of helicopters, ETC., ETC.] because she said it makes it realistic.

BUT, bring up the "torture did not give information that helped to catch Osama," and she gets defensive and says it's a movie and that gives them creative license and "look! not all of the dialogue is true we had to add filler."

If she didn't have the torture scene she would've probably gotten nominated for Best Director for the Oscars.
politic_ennui 11th-Jan-2013 04:58 pm (UTC)
*kill Osama
demented_21 11th-Jan-2013 05:01 pm (UTC)
mte, I think everyone involved with the movie was caught up in its ~realism~ and ~badassery~ and they didn't stop to think that people might actually have issues with the torture (and they most certainly didn't realise this could actually hurt their Oscar chances).
winonaforever 11th-Jan-2013 05:02 pm (UTC)
"BUT, bring up the "torture did not give information that helped to catch Osama," and she gets defensive and says it's a movie and that gives them creative license and "look! not all of the dialogue is true we had to add filler."

She and Mark Boal are full of shit! They pat themselves in the back saying that the movie is a quasi-journalistic piece but confronted with "facts" that go against what they're portraying in it they say "it's just a movie". One of my takeaway from this controversy is that they're idiots.

Edited at 2013-01-11 05:03 pm (UTC)
ediesedgwick 11th-Jan-2013 05:31 pm (UTC)
MTE

And after seeing the movie, Chastain's argument that the movie is not pro-torture because they get the key intel when over a lunch of hummus is total bullshit. The characters outright say they use torture to break detainees and then they get the info via manipulation, which works because he was 'broken' by earlier torture.
howlcosmiclove 11th-Jan-2013 05:56 pm (UTC)
mte
spankmypirate 11th-Jan-2013 05:29 pm (UTC)
Exactly, like I get that it's tough for women out there and I have sympathy for her in that regard, but I can't get past her attitude towards this.
evilharrington 11th-Jan-2013 06:38 pm (UTC)
IAWTCSFM. Their feckless defense of how they portray torture as an effective method of interrogation is appalling.
allysouu 11th-Jan-2013 04:59 pm (UTC)
I feel like Zero Dark Thirty would have fared better as an HBO mini series or something. It felt like three separate movies.

I liked both films enough but both were so over hyped that by the time I saw them I was underwhelmed. Also I feel like if Jessica Chastain wins it's more so for her past two years of work rather than this role itself. I wish I had been blown away like I was told I would be.
cammiec 11th-Jan-2013 05:03 pm (UTC)
Actually, I believe her first idea was to make a HBO series about the Tora Bora battle, which then she decided to make a movie but then bin Laden was killed and went on to make this movie instead.
allysouu 11th-Jan-2013 05:11 pm (UTC)
Really? That's interesting I'll have to read up on the movie more I guess because I had no idea.
punishermax 11th-Jan-2013 05:01 pm (UTC)
To me, the torture thing has always come down to this: it should be illegal. IF we have a situation where, and this is what all the conservatives harp about, we NEED information, and there is absolutely no way to get it other than torture and lives are in imminent danger then the person who does should be willing to stand up and give why they did it and explain why they felt that what they did was absolutely needed in that moment.

It's a really tough decision to make in that situation, but I believe that those are so fucking rare, that to base the entire question upon them is not something we should do.
skonka 11th-Jan-2013 05:07 pm (UTC)
Stand up to whom? A judge in chambers?
A Senate/Parliamentary committee?

Shouldn't they just let the President/Prime Minister make the call and let him take the heat?
punishermax 11th-Jan-2013 05:11 pm (UTC)
I'd hope that it would be an open court case in front of a Senate committee. If those soldiers want to go down the road they need to understand that they WILL GET CHARGED for the illegal crime they commit.
skonka 11th-Jan-2013 05:03 pm (UTC)
Snub? Are you snubbed when the others are better than you/your wee movie?
punishermax 11th-Jan-2013 05:05 pm (UTC)
Lincoln got nominated and The Master didn't sooooooooo
skonka 11th-Jan-2013 05:08 pm (UTC)
Well I saw neither but I see the people behind Lincoln and, well... do you need more than that?
fauxkaren 11th-Jan-2013 05:12 pm (UTC)
Lincoln wasn't ~amazing, but it was a better move than The Master, imo.
ms_mmelissa 11th-Jan-2013 05:18 pm (UTC)
Better according to who? ZDT has a 95 on metacritic and is the most well-reviewed film of the year (it's even more well-reviewed than The Hurt Locker which was the most well-reviewed film the year it won). Bigelow received a glut of nominations from critics and her guild.

This will go down as one of the worst snubs on record.
wheresandrae 11th-Jan-2013 05:21 pm (UTC)
a snub is when all the pundits say you're a lock (like these 2) and then you don't even get nominated. so yes, they were snubbed.
masterofmystery 11th-Jan-2013 05:22 pm (UTC)
when you're nominated and were the front-runner for every other directing award? um yes, that's a snub
boweeko 11th-Jan-2013 05:39 pm (UTC)
Well considering she has been nominated for every other best director award out there, this is the best reviewed movie of the year, and she was basically considered the frontrunner...then yes that is considered a snub.
die2nitelive4ev 11th-Jan-2013 05:05 pm (UTC)
Argo was much better though.
fauxkaren 11th-Jan-2013 05:13 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen ZDK yet (I'll probably go see it today), but Argo is still holding the top spot as my favorite movie of the year.
katiefitch 11th-Jan-2013 05:34 pm (UTC)
Argo succeeded where ZDT failed in that they made the entire movie suspenseful despite everyone knowing the ending already
I was so bored for 90% of ZDT
ediesedgwick 11th-Jan-2013 05:42 pm (UTC)
Yeah. I had some major problems with Argo but it was an entertaining movie, which is a lot more than I can say for ZD30
howlcosmiclove 11th-Jan-2013 06:07 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen Argo (don't care to tbh), but ia about ZDT.
logan_lerman 11th-Jan-2013 06:14 pm (UTC)
u NEVER lie<3
soph_posh 11th-Jan-2013 05:42 pm (UTC)
I totally agree
bossm 11th-Jan-2013 05:14 pm (UTC)
Argo is about the middle east like ZDT but it has nothing to do with torture. The Academy probably didn't like the middle east aspect.
wheresandrae 11th-Jan-2013 05:23 pm (UTC)
they nominated argo and zdt just not for directing. they didn't hate either movie, each has at least 5 nominations.
bossm 11th-Jan-2013 05:26 pm (UTC)
But do you think that it has chances to win BP after not being nominated for directing?
wheresandrae 11th-Jan-2013 05:22 pm (UTC)
The only movie better than ZDT is Amour.

I'm very surprised she was snubbed, even WITH the controversy.
katiefitch 11th-Jan-2013 05:33 pm (UTC)
i was not a huge fan of ZDT but i loved argo
plus i just read this about ZDT:

In ZD30, a van drives through Islamabad or Peshawar, Pakistan (I forgot which city). It gets stopped by some frowning young men, and the token good-Muslim character Hakim (Fares Fares) steps out to find out why. Apparently, the filmmakers did not notice that he speaks to the young men in Arabic. In Peshawar, where he should be speaking in either Urdu, Pashtu, Punjabi, or even Dari, none of which sound remotely like Arabic. That would be like featuring scenes from "Lincoln" in Latin. Or Arabic. Or Pashtu. Second, the young men stop the van because of the presence of White people. The problem with this point is that not only is it difficult to see the people in the van, but the Pakistanis and Afghans in Peshawar are generally at least as light-skinned as the people in the van. It is also rather curious that Fares Fares in this film is of dark complexion, while in most of his photos on the internet, he himself has light skin.
ediesedgwick 11th-Jan-2013 05:36 pm (UTC)
It's *~just a movie~*
spankmypirate 11th-Jan-2013 05:38 pm (UTC)
omg, 'token good-Muslim character' is spot on.
boweeko 11th-Jan-2013 05:41 pm (UTC)
yeah I thought that scene was pretty unnecessary actually and seemed included just because the movie had been a little slow and they needed to include something with some tension
decadent_chains 11th-Jan-2013 05:59 pm (UTC)
Oh, shit... I mean, come on, who doesn't know people in that region are really light-skinned? Such Evil Orient bullshit, sometimes I hate that folks have to pick between supporting a woman and wanting better depictions of non-white people in Hollywood films.
sofiascarlett 11th-Jan-2013 06:31 pm (UTC)
Omg, I didn't know Fares Fares was in ZDT.

I could only find one photo of him from ZDT, and he looks like he usually does. However, I haven't seen the movie so I can't say for sure.
evilharrington 11th-Jan-2013 06:46 pm (UTC)
Typical.
ellaellaeheheh 11th-Jan-2013 05:34 pm (UTC)
I'll watch zero dark thirty tonight. But I didn't like Argo. It took me so long to finish. I just didnt care for the characters.
la_petite_singe 11th-Jan-2013 05:39 pm (UTC)
In one of the worst lines in the movie, a C.I.A. official complains that new, Obama-era rules have tied his hands: he can’t interrogate the prisoners at Guantánamo at all, because their lawyers will run to tell Al Qaeda what they were asked.

...Yeah, no, that's not what that line meant. Their hands aren't tied [lord, that's a bad way of putting it] because Obama is a meanie, it's because the idiots at Abu Ghraib abused the prisoners just for "fun," not even to get information or anything. It's making a point about the gray morality of torture and the fine line between "enhanced interrogation" and sadism. I'm a huge pacifist, but I loved ZDT and I don't believe it promotes torture at all, it just states that it happened. Which it did. In the film, it's somewhat useful in steering them towards useful information, but it's hardly a foolproof method, and the protagonists make plenty of mistakes along the way. Furthermore, the interrogators and the detainees are all 'humanized;' Jason Clarke's character isn't a psycho who loves hurting people, and the guys they torture aren't over-the-top evil terrorists types. They're all just guys doing their jobs. Bigelow's really, really good about not judging her characters. The way it's presented is very matter-of-fact; even the camera angles and everything are significant. I'm trying to believe that all this criticism is just unsophisticated readings of the film and not people just straight-up lying and trying to sanitize history by pretending the U.S. didn't use torture, buuuuut that's basically what it looks like.

[/rant]
ediesedgwick 11th-Jan-2013 05:47 pm (UTC)
How is there a gray morality of torture when there is no evidence to demonstrate that it gets information more effectively than other methods of interrogation, and confessions obtained via torture do not hold up in court?

I mean, you could argue that the end justifies the means if torture was the quickest way to get intel and was useable to sentence actual terrorists, but the reality is that it does not help and it gets in the way of convicting terrorists. The movie ignores all that and paints it as the end justifying the means anyway.
la_petite_singe 11th-Jan-2013 05:51 pm (UTC)
I don't think it's gray; I'm totally against it. But in the context of the movie the characters feel that there's 'acceptable' torture (means to an end) and 'unacceptable' torture, and they screw themselves over because that's really not a distinction you can make, even if your aims are good. And in the movie it did actually get in the way, like when the guy was put in "the box" and just started mumbling days of the week. Like, you can't put someone through extreme physical and mental stress and then expect their memory to be razor-sharp, it just doesn't make sense. They got some useful information that way, and they also got it by buying that dude a car. That's why I really don't think the film's point is as simple as "torture is useful and led us to bin Laden."
spankmypirate 11th-Jan-2013 05:54 pm (UTC)
I hated the way they attempted to humanise Jason Clarke's character

This is a man who stripped his victim half naked, tied a dog collar around his neck, dragged him around the room as though he were an animal and then locked him in a box.

idk, because he felt regretful afterwards and they shot his monkeys we were supposed to feel sorry for him afterwards?

I myself found it impossible to get past. That torture scene was entirely unnecessary.

We see Maya look shocked and sickened at the beginning, but then she herself uses torture and allows a man to get beaten in the face in order to interrogate him. What kind of character arc...? And if I'm not mistaken, the CIA said outright that the way the torture was depicted in the film was highly inaccurate.

I found the stance on torture to be extreme muddled, to put it lightly, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth.
boweeko 11th-Jan-2013 05:45 pm (UTC)
So I've seen all of these films nominated now, and I can honestly say that Bigelow being snubbed for best director is one of the biggest snubs in Hollywood history. In no world does it make sense that David O. Russell (SLP) and Benh Zeitlin (Beasts of the Southern Wild) should have been nominated over Bigelow. If Zero Dark Thirty was to be nominated for any Oscar, it should have been directing. There was nothing noteworthy about the directing of a rom-com with a good script and good performances (SLP), and Beats of the Southern Wild was an exceptional film but the directing was often messy and had some pretty glaring problems. This was also Zeitlin's first feature length film, so there were a lot of "rookie" problems prevalent.

The fact that Kathryn Bigelow was not nominated is embarrassing for the Academy. ZDT is the best reviewed film of the year on Metacritic with a 95, and she was nominated for essentially every other major directing award.
fauxkaren 11th-Jan-2013 05:51 pm (UTC)
SLP didn't even have that great of a script imo. lol. Bradley Cooper's performance + his parents were the things that made it a better than average movie.

Beasts of the Southern Wild was ambitious and it had some really good moments, a lot of good ideas, and some GREAT acting, but its weak points were the directing and the script. The movie often seemed unclear and unfocused. So idk why it got nominated for a directing award.
kissoffools 11th-Jan-2013 06:54 pm (UTC)
SLP didn't even have that great of a script imo.

Oh thank god, someone with sense!! There were missing scenes all over the place in SLP, and it really, really bothered me.
lollapoe 11th-Jan-2013 06:53 pm (UTC)
the acting on a movie depends a lot on the director as well (specially when working with kids and amateurs like it was the case for Beasts), so the strengh of the performances in those films probably contributed to how people felt about them.

That said, I agree with a theory I read yesterday about people being super sure that Bigelow was a lock and voting for someone else.
shadowfax 11th-Jan-2013 05:49 pm (UTC)
I was wondering, did the Navy SEALs really yell Osama's name like that like they did in ZDT? It was a bit ridic.
jennitarox 11th-Jan-2013 07:40 pm (UTC)
Lol I was thinking the same thing. "Psst, Osama, you there?" wat.
emmandemms 11th-Jan-2013 05:51 pm (UTC)
Ex-Guantanamo Bay inmates say 'Zero Dark Thirty' aims to excuse torture

LONDON -- Two former Guantanamo detainees on Thursday condemned "Zero Dark Thirty," a film about the hunt for Osama bin Laden whose brutal interrogation scenes have sparked a discussion over the use of extreme methods in the U.S. campaign against terror.
Speaking at an event in London on the eve of the 11th anniversary of the opening of the U.S. prison camp in eastern Cuba, the pair said the film was an attempt to rehabilitate those guilty of human rights abuses.
"These people are getting away not only with committing the torture ... they're justifying it," said one of the ex-detainees, Libyan-born Omar Deghayes, who was left partially blind after what he said was an American guard's attempt to gouge out his eyes.

The other ex-detainee, Iraqi-born Bisher al-Rawi, said Hollywood films he used to watch portrayed torturers as the bad guys.
Casting heroes as torturers "will justify a very, very different mindset," he said at the event organized by human rights group CagePrisoners. "I think that's very dangerous."
More than 900 people have been imprisoned at Guantanamo, most of them held for years without charge. Deghayes and al-Rawi were released in 2007, part of a group of British residents who were returned to the U.K. following a lobbying campaign by family members and British human rights organizations.

The movie "is impassioned in its belief that torture was an important tool in the war on terror and that it led to the death of Osama bin Laden," she said. "It's a polemic dressed up as fiction."


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/ex-guantanamo-bay-inmates-say-zero-dark-thirty-aims-to-excuse-torture-1.1109523#ixzz2HgrncnXz
spankmypirate 11th-Jan-2013 06:27 pm (UTC)
Oh shit, this is interesting.

I might post it later on myself if you don't.
emmandemms 11th-Jan-2013 06:43 pm (UTC)
go ahead, i've never posted before so you'll probably do a better job
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