ONTD

Ew. I hope not! Is he that much older than her? I never thought about it.

It is probable. He is 15 years older than her.

lol, that was my first thought!

Might be the record exec she was dating around the same time.

There is no 'Uncle' Joey.

Jesse's an uncle. Joey is Danny's pedo slacker BFF.

no. she's not. that was 5 years later, though that realationship does follow the pattern begun by the unhealthy one with who she is talking about, a record exec when she was 14..

That's exactly what I was thinking. :/

oh man your comment made me lol xD

Edited at 2008-11-01 05:11 pm (UTC)

best song.

lol
omg, i'm going to hell

I don't think so...the older person should know better and the younger party is being taken advantage of. There's likely some manipulation involved.

if my 14 year old girl seduced or was seduced by a 29 year old man, not only is she a victim of that older person that should have known better, but I'd consider her a victim of parental neglect...

statutory rape exists because at that age you often lack the ability/maturity to make correct decisions, and are easily taken advantage of.

Not always- statutory rape mainly has to do with the age difference (someone over 18 and someone under 18) and can be consensual or non-consensual.

according to law, it's not consensual because a child cannot consent to sex.

Just because you like to be manhandled by men 40-billion years older than you, doesn't mean the rest of us find it consensual.

I agree, when I was 14 I got involved with a 20 year old guy. Yeah, he messed with my head but everything we did, I wanted to do. It pissed me off when people would say it was "statutory rape" because not once did he force me to do something I didn't want to do. But that's the law for ya.

I agree with what your saying, but some don't understand the nuance between physically forcing someone to have sex with you and taking advantage of inexperienced mental faculty. It's unfortunate and kind of salacious that she's equating the two.

I agree with you bb.

I agree with you 100%. It's not like a 14 year old can't think for themselves. She obviously knew what she was doing at the time and probably enjoyed herself. Now she looks back and thinks she's an idiot for what she did and is therefore a "victim."

I think it's really upsetting that people are acting as though statutory rape isn't a big deal. An adult male having sex with an adolescent girl is statutory rape. You don't know what circumstances led to this. Maybe he told her he would leave her if she didn't sleep with him. Maybe he threatened her in some way like "I'll tell your parents that you let me do x,y,z to you if you don't sleep with me". The point is, you don't know, and it is a crime, and even though a girl of that age knows right from wrong, it doesn't mean she can make good decisions about her sexual health, and it usually means that she has little to no personal experience with adult relationships and how they work. It bothers me that so many people are pretty much giving the "well, she asked for it" response to this.

Have you heard her song Hands Clean?

If it weren't for your maturity none of this would have happened
If you weren't so wise beyond your years I would've been able to control myself
If it weren't for my attention you wouldn't have been successful and
If it weren't for me you would never have amounted to very much

Ooh this could be messy
But you don't seem to mind
Ooh don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

We'll fast forward to a few years later
And no one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

You're essentially an employee and I like you having to depend on me
You're kind of my protégé and one day you'll say you learned all you know from me
I know you depend on me like a young thing would to a guardian
I know you sexualize me like a young thing would and I think I like it

Ooh this could get messy
But ooh you don't seem to mind
Ooh don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

We'll fast forward to a few years later
And no one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

What part of our history's reinvented and under rug swept?
What part of your memory is selective and tends to forget?
What with this distance it seems so obvious?

Just make sure you don't tell on me especially to members of your family
We best keep this to ourselves and not tell any members of our inner posse
I wish I could tell the world 'cause you're such a pretty thing when you're done up properly
I might want to marry you one day if you watch that weight and keep your firm body

Ooh this could be messy and
Ooh I don't seem to mind and
Ooh don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

We'll fast forward to a few years later
No one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

Ooh this could be messy and
Ooh I don't seem to mind
Ooh don't go tellin' everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

We'll fast forward to a few years later
No one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

I think the lyrics make it fairly clear why she feels victimized.

i just felt like i should be apart of this comment since it's so long

In most places in Canada though, the age of consent is like 13. So for her to have been stat raped, it means he would have been over 18 and she would have been under 13. If the laws were the same then...
In that case, a young child cannot make that kind of choice wisely, even if it seems right at the time.


I always thought that is what Hands Clean was about.

All the back & forth is why the law tries to mitigate it by calling certain ages with certain other ages "statutory" rape. It's not rape per se but it's manipulation and coercion of a minor that might or might not have a base of information/maturity.

If Alanis is bagging on Dave Coulier yet again all I can say for her is she needs to exorcise her demons once and for all, and stop dragging the world through her issues over and over and over and over again. Not only is it irritating to her audience but it does her no good either. Dave has said he has tried to make amends with her and thought they'd gotten back to a place where they were healing into a friendship. Now she's back on the same high horse. :/

At the time I doubt she considered herself a victim but she can probably see now how it has affected her life. The fact that she still has 'feelings of shame' over something that happened 20 years ago clearly shows that you can be a victim of a consensual act.

14 is incredibly young in comparison to 29. Just saying.

I think it depends on each individual case. Every teenager is different, and while one 14 year old may be too immature to make decisions regarding sex, other 14 year olds are mature for their age (especially girls since they mature faster). The law exists to protect some minors who are not mature enough to make adult decisions. It's not fair to everyone, but it exists for a reason.

the WHOLE POINT of the term statutory rape is that someone under the age of consent CANNOT HAVE CONSENSUAL SEX.

catch the clue train.

i think some might think they are victimized as an afterthought. they think they are ready to have sex, but later realize that having sex at a young age somehow fucked them up.

idk. i don't really believe in the age of consent. everyone mentally progresses at different ages. my friend danny first had sex with a 16 year old boy when he was 9 years old. he doesn't regret losing his virginity at that age and in that situation, so i don't see anything wrong with it.

but if alanis feels victimized, i think that is entirely legitimate.

Statutory rape is non consensual in the eyes of the law because the minor is unable to give consent, due to their age and the rights they have at that age. It does not matter if a fifteen year old tells a thirty year old 'yes' because they are not old enough to say 'yes'.

I do, however, see your point. He didn't shove her up against a wall and take it while she cried for him to stop. But it's still rape because she cannot give consent, even if she wants to.

I think if she considers herself a victim, though...well, she'd know better than any of us if there was manipulation, which can be very hard to stand up against, even for an adult. Sexual abuse includes emotional manipulation. I know from experience that being manipulated into having sex can leave someone feeling very angry and hurt and it does damage ability to trust, especially if it's someone that you love.

WHAT THE FUCK

She was 14 and taken advantage off by her 29 year old music producer who, judging by the lyrics of Hands Clean, got off on his position of power of her and emotionally abused her. (You're essentially an employee and I like you having to depend on me...Just make sure you don't tell on me especially to members of your family...
I might want to marry you one day if you watch that weight and keep your firm body). I'd say the word victim is correct for that situation, it's not like she was even 16 or 17. 14 is clearly way too young for an adult men to be messing around with

I think she classed it like that because the age of consent is 14.

I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of young girls (13-15) are attracted to older guys (20-30.) But that doesn't make it ok for the older guy to act on it. Like everyone else said, he should know better and find a girl his own age to stick it in.
A lot of older men target younger girls because they know they're naive and easy to manipulate.
So I kinda get what you're saying, but I don't agree with you completely.

Edited at 2008-11-03 12:44 am (UTC)

Victim still applies. Adults who have consexual sex with teens and children generally are pretty good at manipulating them and controlling them.

Oh wait, "statutory?"
Get the fuck out

not necessarily, just because a person is charged with stat rape doesn't mean it was consensual... stat rape is ANY sexual assault where age is a factor, it's often coupled with things like corruption of a minor and aggravated asexual assault

the whole concept of statutory rape implies that it can never be consensual. a 14 year old lacks the capacity to consent. being taken advantage of as a CHILD = rape.

Wow...we're comparing trauma levels now? These kinds of assumptions do not help.

Do go away.

Don't try and quantify trauma. It's a ridiculous.

There's no such thing as "statutory sex". Statutory rape is called that because statutes (laws) have been passed that make having sex with someone who is underage automatically rape, regardless of the circumstances. Indeed, for that matter all statutory rape is consensual - the only illegal aspect of statutory rape is the age of one of the participants. That's the whole point.

Your ignorance is, quite frankly, embarassing.

Sweeping generalizations rarely work.

"aren't victims of sexual assault usually more private about it?"

Um...that's kinda the problem.

Sometimes, sharing experiences like this can help people that have been abused as well to open up.. Unless you're just desperate for attention.

“I was the victim of statutory rape and this book will help me get rid of the feelings of shame.”

yeah all of us who were abused should shut our mouths,right?

I agree with you. The rest of these tools are twisting your words so they can, like Alanis, use their experience with "abuse" to garner attention.

no, i was repeatedly abused and sexually assaulted by my ex-husband (who plead guilty, so please don't give me the married it doesn't count line)

after a lot of therapy, i'm VERY open about the experience with anyone who asks or brings it up, if I can make myself approachable to anyone who may be in that position, or who needs help to find therapy after getting away for it, that helps me feel more at peace with what happened to me... sometimes owning what happened and now being in control of how I react to what happens is cathartic and helps me work through some of my own feelings on it

You have got to be fucking kidding me. Not talking about abuse is the quickest way to ensure it continues.

You'd think so, yes, but it really depends on a lot of things about you.
Everyone has a different personality and some people need to share things and explain why they are the way they are.
I was sexually abused when I was younger, and I've became quite the agoraphobic person. I can go out and have fun, as long as I know everyone I'm with, just being with people I don't know makes me completely uncomfortable, to the point where I've had panic attacks.
And sometimes I feel the need to explain why I am the way I am.
But that's just cause I'm that way, there are more private persons who would rather keep it to themselves.

Different people deal with abuse in different ways. She never talked about it before until putting it in her book, which is about her life. Obviously it had an impact on her life, so she's going to write about it. It's not like the whole book is about it. It's not like she's sending copies of it to your house.

i agree

I read the thread, and I see what you mean about making a profit off her abuse. However, I don't really see this as the case. Her songs have touched on this issue in the past, and she probably has fans who are abuse victims. By not telling the story in the book, that would be an injustice to them. I also think she would sell the same amount of books irregardless; she isn't a has-been trying to make herself relevant again.

I'm sorry people are being so shitty to you about this and you're endlessly having to defend your statement :(

It's people like this -- rape survivors who feel strong enough to share their stories with the world -- who help make it easier for other survivors to talk about and deal with their experiences. Some rape survivors are "more private" about it, yes, but I personally feel that people who speak out and are willing to share their stories like this are doing a great service to others. Rape isn't something that should be kept quiet. If a survivor feels the urge to share her (or his!) story, so much the better.

Some are. Some find it healing to talk about.

This, Im afraid...

Forreal.

TOTALLY. 100%

lol ia

lol ikr

actually she's still really successful.

i think you confused her with paris/lilo/any other piece of shit "celebrity"

she's the single most stable person i know in industry. her angry white female-shtik was just an act.

watch her @ the howard stern show where she talked not only about "pot" but something else. not heroin, of course, but anyway

Read the rest of the article. She was 14; he was 29. That's a bigger deal than "OMG LOL LIKE STATUTORY RAPE ISN'T RAPE LOL!"

While I did not enjoy the first part of your comment, the cut it out part did make me laugh in real life.

LOL TRUTH

so a 40 year old producer should be able to have sex with a 16 year old singer? really? wow

"...after dating a 29-year-old man when she was just 14..."

14 would have been the legal age of consent at that time in Canada

Must be

lmao

Or maybe she wants to write a book to educate other young girls.

lol ikr

Rafi :D